Zonal tournament in Cannes

Information and discussion
Post Reply
N. Guibert

Zonal tournament in Cannes

Post by N. Guibert » Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:53

Hi,

Probably Jacek Pawlicki is the one who will reply. Others may also know the answer.

The zonal tournament in Cannes was played. I expected it to be played according to the same logics as the zonal tournament played in 2000 in Poland (Slawno).

At that time, only players from countries who had no qualified yet could participate.

For a long while, I thought the zonal in Cannes would follow the same logics and the site of the EDC seemed to tell it.

But one month before Cannes, the names of Scholma and Clerc appeared, according to their 7th and 8th place in the Europe Championship...

I would like to know when this decision was taken, and by who.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Jacques PERMAL

Zonal de CANNES

Post by Jacques PERMAL » Mon Mar 31, 2003 18:25

Tu poses une question intéressante pour laquelle je ne suis en mesure de donner une réponse.

Mais je suis amené à dériver : Aurais-tu eu la possibilité de partager ton temps entre la démontration de BUGGY et ta participation au Zonal ?

Merci d'avance ! En espérant que tu auras répose à ta question !!!

A.Presman
Posts: 2104
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 16:43
Real name: Alexander Presman
Location: the Netherlands

Re: Zonal tournament in Cannes

Post by A.Presman » Mon Mar 31, 2003 22:51

N. Guibert wrote:Hi,

Probably Jacek Pawlicki is the one who will reply. Others may also know the answer.
On behalf of "Others" who knows
The tournament in Cannes (as well as the tournament in Poland in 2000) wasn't a part of the system but semi-improvisation.

Normally 20 places in WCh should be distributed as following:
- World champion
- Challenger
- 3 places "Yakutsk"
- 6 places Europe
- 4 places Africa
- 2 places America
- 1 place Asia
- organization country
- Sponsor's place

And all reserve places should be filled by the following non-qualified players from the same qualification source ( If one American player do not come - his place is going to the next American. If player qualified through "Challenge" don't participate - his place is for the next player from Challenge). So there is no reserve list as some years ago.
There is only one reserve player - make-even in case of odd quantity of players (for instance there is only one player from America and no substitute from America is available)

Everything would work by this way, but couple of things made it difficult to keep on.
1) EDC decided to organise European Championship with semifinal and play-off system in final of 8
2) This system provide possibility to define order 1-8 places but not 9-16
3) 4 players who qualified from Yakutsk (Georgiev, Shvarzman, Getmansky and Milshin) decided (qualified) also to participate in ECh

This leaded to the probable situation that if all 4 abovementioned players would get last 8 ( and it was quite realistic ) there would be not possible to define whou is 5th and 6th qualifier.
So General Assembly of section 100 FMJD on their meeting before ECh took the following decision:
- To change the number of direct qualifiers from European Championship from 6 to 4.
- To organise in Cannes (there was suggestion from the organisation of festival) additional tournament for last 2 places taken off from ECh
- To allow participation in this tournament to 1 player from each country which didn't qualify so far
- Players who will finish in ECh as 5th and 6th (without counting earlier qualified players) get personal places in Cannes under condition that they will get last 8.

The last was a kind of fair decision. Practically the 2 places to be played out in Cannes were somehow taken off from two players. So as the players were somehow (according to reglement but still) "grabbed" - the only fair give-back was that they could get another chance to earn "their" places back.

You know results of ECh. Not 4, but only two players with tickets to WCh got to last 8 (Georgiev and Shvartsman). And player with places 7-8 R.Clerc and A.Scholma got places in Cannes.

I hope you understand problem and the way how they were solved. Of course if you have more questions - this is just why we have this Forum

Jacek Pawlicki

Zonal tournament in Cannes

Post by Jacek Pawlicki » Tue Apr 01, 2003 13:53

We decide about it during 100-draughts congress in Amsterdam on October so there is nothing complytly new. We decide that everybody who will be promoted into top-8 in EC(Domburg) and not promoted into WC directly - have a additional chace by zonal tournament. Of course it is difference when You compare it with Slawno'2000. But of course other rules (one promotion from country maximum) still valid ! It is important because I have some information (not official) that. gmi Koyfan will not play in WC - in this case 1st reserve - Mr. Podolski.

Regards: Jacek Pawlicki

N. Guibert

Post by N. Guibert » Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:55

Hello Alexander,
Hello Jacek,

Your answer is satisfying. I regret though that this information was not available easily before. On the EDC site, there was no mention to these rules.

Alexander, what you explained is completely sensible, but could you put the document where this is all written on the FMJD site. This info must not be in the hand of some "happy few" but should be available for everyone to see. So I expect you to publish any such documents on the FMJD site. Sounds fair, no ?

Documents should be available within 15 days after the FMJD, EDC.. meetings.

The ECh system has indeed this drawback that it is difficult to rank the players after place 8.

But more than that, it is also a very unfair system for separating places 1-8 from places 9-16, especially when these places can be converted into Wch qualifying places.

If you lose one single game in 1/8th finale, then you are out for the race.

If you don't, then you may lose all games and still finish 8th.

And all this does not depend only on your performance, but a lot on the good or back luck you had with your opponents.

Maybe Arnaud Cordier deserved to be in the best 8, but he had the bad luck to play against Georgiev. He lost in the semi-rapid games, and that was all over !

Really unfair system. Obviously, a show system can't be a fair system at the same time. We have to choose between show and fairness.

That's why the system of a qualifying tournament is a good thing, I believe. Maybe 7 rounds is not enough (surely it is not enough).

I don't really care myself, if there are no French players, no Italian players, no Belgian players, no Polish players in the WCh, if they are not strong enough to qualify. I don't feel it unfair that there are 5 Russian players in the WCh. They just deverve it. They all are in the top 10.

I am only asking for some limitations. 5 or 4 players per country should indeed be the limit.

I am not a defender of a system like the one played in Abidjan (I heard this could come back soon). I prefer preliminary qualifying tournaments by zones. Then you now how long you play.


PS : Jacques, je ne comprends pas le sens de ta question. Il n'a jamais été question que je fasse le zonal. Je n'en avais aucun droit. Il y a longtemps que je ne suis plus bien placé dans la liste des qualifications internationales françaises. Et puis, on peut poser des questions pour les autres, non ? Vraiment ta question est bizarre.

N. Guibert

Sponsor place

Post by N. Guibert » Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:00

The question of the sponsor place is a sensitive one.

Some consider it very unfair and that it should never be allowed by the FMJD.

Personnaly, I understand the problem and am open to this.

I don't know if there is a limitation for the sponsor in his choice of the player. I guess there is no.

So, my suggestion is the following :

"The sponsor can only offer his 'sponsor place' to a player whose ranking is above 2250 and who is in list A".

You don't want to see the son of the sponsor in the WCh, don't you ?

Sounds sensible ?

A.Presman
Posts: 2104
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 16:43
Real name: Alexander Presman
Location: the Netherlands

Post by A.Presman » Wed Apr 02, 2003 12:05

Nicolas,
I'm really happy to read your ideas.
I still don't understand why so many people think and speak and so little write. Lucky, you do.
So your opinion is now known and surely is taken into consideration.

The problem with the publishing of the FMJD documents on-site is more connected with the system of their production. After Managing Board or General Assembly has its meeting it is the work of the General Secretary to put it in written form. But even if he does it next day - this Minutes are not official before the next Meeting or General Assembly will approve it.
So fresh info isn't official.
And official info isn't fresh.
So what is the best way? All meetings are multilingual and sometime hectic so the first version of Minutes often has many important unexactitudes.
But you are right in the main - as much as possible all information and decisions has to be open for everybody.

Concerning the system:
The general problem with the zonal tournaments - it was always very difficult to organise one. If you have several zones (I mean actually Europe) and you have several zonal tournaments - than there is big risk that for instance 3 will be organised and 1 not. What than?
Therefore FMJD goes the easiest way and provide the qualification rights to continental confederations so mostly to continental championships.
EDC have chosen for the play-off system I suppose already long before it became known that ECh will hold qualification status.
No doubt that play-off system doesn't define fair place 8 or 9. Moreover pure play-off system defines fair ONLY the winner.
But it fails if you want to define other places. Thats why in ECh first 8 continued to play also after loosing in quater-finals.
The problem of this particular championship was that the big black line of qualification was just between places 8 and 9, so maybe to be fair also there -you have to do this last competition not for 8 , but for 16. But if you do so - tournament becomes so long that you loose almost all advantages of the play-off.
You see - there is no simple receipt. Any system has its pluses and minuses. Maybe suggestion of the system in general deserves separated topic or even Forum.

And about sponsor's place. This place is oficially Sponsor/FMJD place. So FMJD probably will not allow to sponsor to let low level player into WCh.
(Sponsor place of WCh in Zwartsluis is given to Ton Sijbrands!).
But does FMJD have to not allow the son of sponsor with the rating of 2249 or 2149? Personally I think - not.
If the player is so weak that he will loose against all leaders - it makes no difference for the tournament result.
And if he is able to not to lose - that he is not so weak that we have to decline him to participate.

N.Guibert

Post by N.Guibert » Fri Apr 04, 2003 15:20

I'm really happy to read your ideas.
I still don't understand why so many people think and speak and so little write. Lucky, you do.
So your opinion is now known and surely is taken into consideration.
Well, it is the same everywhere. Here at work too. Many people complain, but very few dare to talk to the boss. At least here with the FMJD, we have nothing to fear, so we could expect more discussion. But what can I say more ?

The problem with the publishing of the FMJD documents on-site is more connected with the system of their production. After Managing Board or General Assembly has its meeting it is the work of the General Secretary to put it in written form. But even if he does it next day - this Minutes are not official before the next Meeting or General Assembly will approve it.
So fresh info isn't official.
And official info isn't fresh.
So what is the best way? All meetings are multilingual and sometime hectic so the first version of Minutes often has many important unexactitudes.
But you are right in the main - as much as possible all information and decisions has to be open for everybody.
Then something is wrong. We are now in the 21st century. If the FMJD board only meets once a year, and nothing official can be done between these meetings, then it will never work.

Probably, you should work more via the Internet. Via a chat zone or a forum reserved to the FMJD representatives. But anyway, you should definitely find a way to make decisions faster. That seems obvious to me.

Another idea that might help is, after each meeting write down a short abstract, summarizing the decisions. Even if these abstracts are not completely official, I think with a big SIGN "THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL YET. TEXT SUBJECT TO (IMPORTANT) CHANGES" and "PRELIMINARY DECISIONS FROM LAST MEETING".

This way, the essential parts of the decicions will be known much in advance and could be further discussed before being finally official. Of course, the sooner, the better. It is never good when players learn the rules 15 days before a tournament, or worse in the middle of the tournament.

By the way, the Ech was in October, and the meeting of the FMJD at this very same time. How is that possible that something related to qualifications be decided in the middle of the tournament. This seems to be a bad habit, as I have already heard of such things in the past. Maybe you can correct me.
Moreover pure play-off system defines fair ONLY the winner.
Right !

And about sponsor's place. This place is oficially Sponsor/FMJD place. So FMJD probably will not allow to sponsor to let low level player into WCh.
(Sponsor place of WCh in Zwartsluis is given to Ton Sijbrands!).
But does FMJD have to not allow the son of sponsor with the rating of 2249 or 2149? Personally I think - not.
If the player is so weak that he will loose against all leaders - it makes no difference for the tournament result.
And if he is able to not to lose - that he is not so weak that we have to decline him to participate.
I disagree. If you carry on with such a reasoning, then why not play a WCh with Tchizov and Schwarzman only and 18 stupid players. Then only the game Tchizov-Schwarzman will be decisive.

That has to do with statistical significance. There must be as many significant games in a WCh for the World Champion to be really the best player in the world.

In that sense, having a WCh with only the best 20 in the world is not either a good solution since luck would play a too important role in that case, I believe.

[/quote][/quote]

A.Presman
Posts: 2104
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 16:43
Real name: Alexander Presman
Location: the Netherlands

Post by A.Presman » Fri Apr 04, 2003 18:25

Then something is wrong. We are now in the 21st century. If the FMJD board only meets once a year, and nothing official can be done between these meetings, then it will never work.
Probably, you should work more via the Internet. Via a chat zone or a forum reserved to the FMJD representatives. But anyway, you should definitely find a way to make decisions faster. That seems obvious to me.


CD (managing board of the FMJD) has meetings not once but 4 times a year. Still it is not much and sometimes it is difficult to avoid the feeling that CD works also just 4 days a year.
The closed (existing) part of this Forum which was just meant to change it ( for member of the Managing board) has been opened even earlier than the open part. Pity - it braught not much. Unfortunately also CD people prefer the way it works now.
For questions about the work of the FMJD , critics, suggestions etc. the separated Forum FMJD-organisation is now opened.
By the way, the Ech was in October, and the meeting of the FMJD at this very same time. How is that possible that something related to qualifications be decided in the middle of the tournament. This seems to be a bad habit, as I have already heard of such things in the past. Maybe you can correct me.
Yes, I have to. CD which took the decision about qualification from the ECh was before ECh. So all the participants of the ECh by the opening of the ECh knew the qualification system.
I disagree. If you carry on with such a reasoning, then why not play a WCh with Tchizov and Schwarzman only and 18 stupid players. Then only the game Tchizov-Schwarzman will be decisive.
Sure, the Forum is for discussion. It would be boring if you would agree.

Of course I don't mean Chizhov, Shvartsman and 18 sponsors. ( Though I don't exclude that Chizhov and Shwarzman would appreciate this scenario)
But would, Nicolas, you mind if the son of Bill Gates or the prince of Bahrein ( or both ) would play and it will bring substantial rise of price and organisation funds , so give a possibility to some general improvings, even if their level is lower than 2250?

Vaclav Krista

Zonal Tournament of Cannes 2003 - time control, system

Post by Vaclav Krista » Wed Apr 16, 2003 15:30

Hi,

this is a message that I sent to Jacek Pawlicki on March 19 and I want to share it with the other visitors of the pages. Jacek sent me a short comment so I think that my view are taken seriously.

Vaclav Krista, Czech Republic
+++++++++

Dear Jacek,

You must be busy these days, however, I want to send you my friendly
remarks relating to the zonal tournament. Regardless of my poor performance, I am sure that both the system and the time control were completely wrong.

Although many players complained, consider this my personal message in
good-will.

First, there was no reason for shorter time control when we played 7
rounds in 6 days.

Second, Swiss system was not correct for two qualifiers. Pairing of
the last round was a nightmare and although Mr Teer handled it perfect, it was against the principles.

My suggestion for future is to set firm schedule of games on full time
limit
with exactly described variations upon different numbers of players
such as:

* upto 8 players - round robin
* upto 12 players - two groups of 6, finals (1st and 2nd), 5th - 8th
place (3rd and 4th), 9th - 12th place (5th and 6th), results of games in
groups to be exported to the finals
* upto 13 to 15 players - 5 rounds Swiss, PLAY-OFF of the 1st against
4th, 2nd against 3rd (one game plus barrages), 5th against 8th etc.
* 16 and up - 4 groups round robin and finals

It is just a suggestion. The system can be adjusted and used for
European Championship.

Best regards,

Vaclav Krista

Post Reply